30-30 vs 7.62X39 ballistically


#1

A model 1894 as home/self defense compared with aks replace the flat nose projectiles with hornady leverlution projectiles


Guns for 18-21: How do you feel? (Old Guys Welcome)
#2

I don’t see anything “wrong” with using the lever gun over the semi-auto. The cartridge, however, leaves something to be desired. The 7.62x39 and 30-30 will both likely over penetrate at home defense distances. Being heavier and slower than rounds such as the .223, they tend to plow through interior walls that would cause the lighter/faster AR round to break up.

The “Leverlution” rounds are designed to provide flatter trajectory over flat/round/hollow nose rounds. It’s not really something you need to worry about at MOST self defense ranges. Even the round nose/ hollow point rounds are fine out to an easy 150 yards.


#3

Thank you, I personally like a 12 gauge for that purpose. The reason for the post is there are those out there who unless they see it on a gun channel it isn’t so. My premise is that given equal bullets, that the venerable 30-30 is ballistic-ally equal to the ak and sks rounds, In a lever gun with a practiced .hand the old cartridge doesn’t leave a lot on the table. Thank you again.


#4

.223 Ar for home defense, unless you live on a ranch, is stupid as is any long gun that will shoot a round at that velocity. A 300 black out is even overkill for urban self defense of home because of the over penetration of all of them. A rifle is not a home defense weapon in an urban environment, it is an invitation for collateral damage and getting sued.

Use a pistol round and a defensive frangible round, on every level it is the best defensive weapon for home defense as a prosecution attorney, and you will face one I guarantee it, will not be able to say you intended anything other than defensive use since the round’s purpose itself is even written on the box.


#5

I thought full 30 would be a cut above youtube, my bad, seems folks don’t read here was hoping to get a either. I was hoping to get a response, for others who have 30-30’s who seem to be under the illusion that it is worthless, and that an ak is so much better, when in reality they are ballistic-ally peas in a pod, but some folks can’t believe it unless it is verified on the internet.My personal choice has always been a 12 gauge loaded full of #4 buckshot. Living in the sticks where the nearest neighbor is several miles away and law enforcement 4 times that, any thing I have handy will do! How do I remove posts, as I am tired of play station mentality answering them


#6

Yes they are as close as you con get to each other.I wouldn’t be afraid to use the leaver action for homedefense .


#7

Seriously, people still believe this? Outside of steel core “green tip” or AP rounds, .223/5.56 has LESS penetration than 9mm through drywall and other construction materials. Here’s a video of 65gr .223 and 115gr 9mm vs drywall/ballistic gel. VIDEO The both penetrated the drywall but the .223 barely managed 6 inches of gel afterwards while the 9mm penetrated 9 inches of gel.

124gr/147gr 9mm or heavier .40S&W and .45acp defensive rounds actually penetrate further. Slow and heavy penetrates FAR more than light and fast( 45/70, 300gr at 1900fps penetrating OVER 20 inches of gel ). The lighter bullets with thinner jackets, traveling at higher velocity, shed their jackets and weight on contact with barriers REDUCING over-penetration.

On contact with flesh alone, purpose built .223/5.56 defensive rounds, penetrate no more than quality pistol rounds. Even Winchester PDX-1 defender .308 only penetrates 16 inches of bare ballistic gel(well below the maximum allowed FBI standards for duty/defensive rounds).

A video on rifle ballistics you may want to watch…
rifle ballistics


#8

Thank you for posting this information. When I read BoomerSquid’s post I couldn’t believe someone actually still believed what he posted. Considering the number of vids out there as well as other sources that debunk the myths he perpetuated, really surprising it was posted to begin with. What I’m waiting for now is an actual link posted that supports his “collateral damage and getting sued” statement.


#9

“Use a pistol round and a defensive frangible round”

Don’t miss the forest because of the trees.

Any rifle round, period, will over penetrate when compared to a frangible pistol round.

But of course, Bubba won’t feel as cool unless he’s wielding his AR with 29 additional rounds since he will probably miss with the first one through 20.


#10

RetPara, been out in the world much?

When that round leaves that weapon you own it…it’s not a video game and you can’t hit “re-set” you can’t bring it back once you send it.

10mm gel test: 105 gr DRT, max penetration into standard gell block no barrier a little more than 7" ( very little). This is the frangible round I am talking about. If you hit two layers of drywall, a standard house partition, this round is dust on the other side.


#11

105 gr DRT fired from 4.5" barrel EAA Witness through into calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin.

BB: 590.2 fps, 3.6"

Impact velocity: 1,415 fps
Penetration: 7.1"
Retained weight: 0 gr
Expansion: N/A

Take a look at the article ( The Author not me ) I wrote about this load: http://looserounds.com/2015/11/16/wha…


#12

Out in the world quite a bit Squid. Unlike you I wasn’t trapped in a tube full of seamen (LOL, it’s a joke so don’t get your panties in a wad). Bottom line, much of your original post was simplistic hyperbole and scare mongering, nothing more. The fact you double down on your idiotic “bubba” comment only shows your ignorance on this subject. All rounds are capable of over penetration but what CzechsixTV posted is truth. If that is getting you butthurt then I suggest you go see a doctor for some hemorrhoid cream for that condition.


#13

Not butt hurt at all sugar britches. :slight_smile:

We are not talking about field operations here, are we?

Your sidearm is just to get you back to your rifle, but not in the house, at night, in the dark, when something goes "bump"An AR as a defensive weapon…think about it.

I know, I’ll reach out to where I keep my AR in the sock drawer beside the bed. :slight_smile:

Yes, all rounds except those designed as frangible…the round I pointed you to will not go through even two walls…the AR, the 9MM, the shotgun all those went through like what seven or eight double sided drywall partitions?

It’s simple…fully frangible round only penetrates one drywall partition and then you have copper powder zero weight retention.

So we maximize way beyond anything your butt buddy was harping on. :slight_smile:

Take it easy, don’t get butt hurt.


#14

Let’s just put this discussion to rest shall we?

We’ll both use Draco’s with DRT frangible Ammo… solves the problem with the best of both worlds.

We get our 30 round magazine, our rifle caliber round, our frangible zero mass retained after impact projectile, and I will look oh so cool in my “Bubba” long john underwear and Beech Nut hat as I go Full-30! with my Draco on the home invaders!

:slight_smile: I vote we table this pointless discussion.


#15

Want to rethink that statement??? 9mm DRT frangible through 4 sheets of drywall (2 walls) and TWELVE inches of gel.

As to the pathetic 7 inches from the 10mm, you might just want to read up on the REASONING behind the FBI test protocols. Here, let me do your homework for you HISTORY AND EXPLANATION OF TEST PROTOCOLS. Seven inches IS NOT enough to reliably reach vital organs and produce stops. Frangible ammo is not used by law enforcement, outside of range training, for a reason. It is for range safety, not self defense, no matter how hard DRT tries to market it as such.

As to this gem…

(sarcasm)It’s SOOO much easier to shoot a pistol accurately (sarcasm/)

By the way, I live in a state with mag limits. It matters not, pistol or rifle, I only get 15 rounds. I’d rather have 15 rounds that ACTUALLY penetrate the recommended 12-18 inches AND induces hydro-static shock into the surrounding tissue(which no handgun round can) over a gimmick.


#16

Please stop confusing Squid with facts, I highly doubt he can absorb them :rofl:


#17

Going back to the original topic, the 30-30 ballistically is pretty much equal to the 7.62x39mm for most purposes. Depending on your situation, neither might be the best choice for home defense, but if that is what you have for home defense then it is fully capable of fulfilling the role. A 30-30 that you know how to use capably is better than any other gun that you might not be familiar with, lol!!


#18

Des any firearm matter with anyone that may invade your home? All they will see is a weapon and usually don’t want to get shot. One well placed .22 LR is just as effective as any other firearm you use. As for an AR15, yeah I own a couple but it is a semi auto so I would have to jack one into the chamber because I do but don’t trust the Internal strikers like I do external hammers. A '94 in .30-30 loaded with one in the chamber you can leave indefinitely on half cock. I own a couple of Beretta in 9mm and trust them more than I do a Glock with the external hammers but with any tactical situation you are going to have to have enough nerves to slow down and think and pay attention. In a home invasion you will have to make the shot count even though the home intruder may not.

With anything firearms have certain peculiarities and aspects. I would not use an AK47 or Mini30 and less a bolt action 308 for home defense in an apartment because of the liability involved with the projectile going through walls. In an apartment I would not even use buckshot in a 12 gauge, maybe bird shot which won’t have the penetration per pellet. My family in my home with no neighbors close enough knows what to do if I yell don’t move. Plus you can always be on the floor in prone shooting away from bed height no matter what you use. Most home invaders will never suspect a home owner being in a prone position. Home defense is way more than the caliber firearm you use.

It all boils down to tactics and not being where they assume you to be.


#19

“Myth?”

How many layers of drywall does a .223 / 556 penetrate? Do the math.

It will penetrate eight full walls of drywall, that is sixteen sheets of gypsum rock.

Fire that weapon in a densely housed neighborhood in your house and miss, because in a stress situation many of your shots will miss, and if that round if it is not 100% frangible, it is going to leave your house and hit something you did not intend to shoot.

How is that a “myth?”


#20

Wisdom…many people don’t have it. Good call on low-penetrating cartridges for home defense…seems the arm chair warriors in this thread have it all figured out. Hey, why not use a Barrett 50 BMG just to be sure guys? :slight_smile: