RetPara, sixteen sheets of drywall .223. It is hard not to speak down to idiots, but that is just a fact.
Over penetration, period.
We are not talking gel block laboratory tests…we are talking the real world in the field.
100% frangible rounds are the only wise choice of cartridge for home defense unless you live in the middle of nowhere near no one else.
From the Massachusetts Municipal police training manual(“MMPTM” page 8):
“The longer sight radius permits more accurate shots when compared with the handgun”.Kinda a no brainer…What they don’t mention, though it is also pretty much a given, is the ability to make faster follow up shots and using the rifle as a ranged blunt force instrument if needed.
"The Patrol Rifle will defeat soft body armor…pistol cartridges will not fulfill this aspect"
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Rambo dreams of armored bad guys, right? That stuff NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, MY GOD !!!NEVER!!! happens(the money shot being this quote from the first linked article “That is a trend we are starting to see. The bad guys go in to do a robbery or home invasion and they have their body armor on”).
“The Patrol Rifle will deliver INCAPACITATING hits.The FBI’s Miami Shootout shows us what one man with a patrol rifle can do…The hydrostatic shock from a round impacting at 3000 feet per second will result in far more damage than pistol caliber ammunition” Read that again, INCAPACITATING HITS. Meaning hits which STOP an attacker. For the last time, 7 inches of penetration by a 10mm is PATHETIC and in NO WAY guarantees reaching vital organs, producing the necessary trauma or the requisite loss in blood/blood pressure to induce a stop.
And finally page 28/29 of the MMPTM
"While effective against human targets, the 5.56mm / .223 Remington rounds WILL NOT penetrate as many interior walls as your service pistol. Due to the high velocity, the bullet tends to shatter and break up after impacting the first wall" After passing through drywall, regardless of the number of layers, .223/5.56 loses mass and its ability to penetrate SOFT TISSUE(hence its lethality) is greatly reduced. I point you again to this video I posted above. The .223 penetrated 2/3 the distance through calibrated ballistic gelatin after passing through drywall than standard 9mm. Your magical “DRT” produced 9mm frangible penetrated a full 12 inches of gelatin after passing through drywall in this video.
On to your assertions.
“sixteen sheets of drywall…Over penetration, period” Simply testing penetration of ammo through drywall is pointless unless it is backed by a block of gelatin, due to the fact that even 22LR can run through multiple layers. What is of importance is whether the round remains “lethal” afterward.
You can continue to bleat on about “frangible pistol ammo”, but I challenge you to find me ONE SINGLE source which points to law enforcement using it for anything but training. I’ll wait, but I wont hold my breath.
There are dozens of 5.56/.223 rounds(including frangible) which WILL pass FBI testing protocols, or at the very least induce hydrostatic shock(which pistol rounds can not), while actually delivering on lower lethality through common building materials. Unlike “DRT” marketing hype, those rounds ARE used by law enforcement. Rounds such as Hornady 55gr TAP URBAN, Federal 64gr-sp and Cor-Bon 55gr Urban Response(a frangible RIFLE round).
From raiding drug houses, serving high risk felony arrest warrants to hostage rescue entry teams, law enforcement uses intermediate power carbines in URBAN areas(homes, office buildings and apartment complexes) as their primary weapon because it is BETTER suited for urban use than a pistol. The only reason police carry a side arm is convenience. Even in the days of the “riot” gun riding in police vehicles, if police worried they would need fire power they would grab the long gun not an extra speed loader.
Lastly, as to these little gems “Bubba won’t feel as cool unless he’s wielding his AR with 29 additional rounds since he will probably miss with the first one through 20”/“Bubba” long john underwear and Beech Nut hat”/“Wisdom…many people don’t have it”/"It is hard not to speak down to idiots"
I’ve remained civil through this entire thread. I’ve presented ample evidence to support my position while you’ve done nothing but state your opinion as fact with weak to zero supporting evidence(onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit, non ei qui negat) over and over again(argumentum ad nauseam) and thrown around insults(argumentum ad hominem) when other posters failed to bow to your position. Yup, I guess I’m that “durn dang unedgerkated Bubba”.
Living in southern Missouri I have seen the 30-30 used in self defense. Two Meth heads were trying to force their way into a home and the owner shot thru the steel door with a 30-30 it made for some very nasty wounds but they
survived to go to prison for a few years and will have a lot of scars to remind them how stupid they are.
Just my two cents to this coin. 55gr TBBC LE is superior to either of the two, and will do what it needs to beyond it’s intended range. It’s the perfect defensive 16" rifle-carbine/truck gun/HD load (it would shine when used with a bullpup for that matter). If you’re on a budget 7.62x39 SP’s are a good alternative for that specific purpose. 30-30 will push a bullet twice the weight at double the distance and will do so flatter shooting and harder hitting, but then again: do you really need that in a <100/150m defensive rifle?
Not posting for a keyboard commando war… your choice of a 30/30 will work (IMHO) in a lot of ways a 7.62×39 is a modernized 30/30 round designed for a box magazine not a tubular one, in same sort of way the 300 blackout (supersonic) is to funtion in AR pattern rifle. Not exactly the same but in same class if you will moderate load, projectile weight and recoil… basic a carbine rnd. as the 30/30 started out being, in fact the M1 carbine in 30 cal fits in the same nitch on the lower end. With that I have 7.62x39 and 300 Blackout I got the 300B.O. for pig hunting. My 7.62x39 rifle is not up to the optics. I have known many that only own a 30/30 and 22LR rifles never needed anything else. To the point my Late cousin Barb kept a 30/30 for her home defense, coyote, everthing else rifle as long as I known. Was She the know all… no but She knew her rifle and its limits.
Politely stated, there is nothing to discuss…it is very simple.
This is not a law enforcement situation we are discussing, so set those points aside.
It is an unarmored individual you will face in a burglary or home invasion robbery. If he is hit one time by fully frangible ammo he’s going down, or he’s turning and running away.
If you miss you have nothing to worry about.
With your AR you have all kinds of things to worry about if you miss.
It’s that simple.
And thank you for raising all those valid points, they have a value int he right venue, just not this one.
Every point Czech has made has value, especially in this venue. Your bombastic attitude and obstinate adherence to failed internet lore is what is not of value in “this venue”.
Believe as you wish, no matter how incorrect and disproven it may be. Just remember, there is FACT and there is OPINION. Facts are universal and applicable as the set standard whereas opinions are based almost universally on personal feelings and ingrained bias and prejudices, as you have demonstrated from the get go on this topic.
Good day and goodbye from former ground pounding Eighty Deuce “Bubba who won’t feel cool” that was involved in many urban “clearance operations” overseas.
Is your failure to grasp simple concepts the reason you were a ground pounder in the first place? Doesn’t seem to be a single person on here that understands the difference between urban combat, “who gives a damn how far and wide I shoot or how many walls my FMJ goes through”, versus being held accountable when you hit someone you did not intend to shoot. Frangible ammo is the only wise choice in home defense, especially if you have a concern about your children or your neighbors.
But if you are in the sandbox who gives a shit, right?
Somehow I picture Boomer wishing he was in that pic and could be that cool while being that wrong, LMAO.
Still laughing…“not posting for a keyboard commando war”! Lol… followed by common sense lady story! Bravo!
I hit site expecting to see a ballistic chart! Lmao … most of what i read is like the democrat vs texas republican joke when confronting an unexpected intruder in the middle of the night. A lenthy intellectual talk attempting four ways to reason with a totally unknown body in the dark (having no idea whether the intruder is armed or not) vs the four responses of the startled texan… “Bang, Bang, Bang, Bang”!!! Ive had My door kicked in by four intruders and I’ll go with the lady! Grab what u know best and end the dispute then go to court. I plan defensive weapons and scenarios in advance to meet my environment. The door kicking was in a crowded apt complex with many children and nice adults in a troubled neighborhood. I kept a Ruger mark I .22 target pistol on the coffee table on rowdy nights. Thumb safety and rapid fire with hits precisely where i want from10’ & under. I didn’t even have to fire. 4 black racists teeny teens (13-14) who suddenly departed at 500’/sec 950’/sec 2300’/sec & 2780’/sec respectively. (obviously some were higher grained projectiles than the fat kid…) (teen boys can move quickly when motivated lol)
You can easily choose loads which dump ALL that energy inside a person. While common ammo is overkill, and overpenetrative, it’s not correct to say that 223 300 BO etc overpenetrate.
You and everyone who responds to my initial post is missing the point entirely. It is not about over penetration in a target body, it is about over penetration of the projectile WHEN IT MISSES. Note it goes through enough drywall like fifteen or sixteen sheets, to easily pass through and out of any house you are in. This point of mine is about use of an effective defensive round in a densely populated area that is not going to end up getting you sued for injuring, or God forbid, imprisoned for killing your neighbors.
And you completely ignore the point that handgun rounds in general, and “frangible” handgun rounds in particular, are NOT “effective” at inducing stops. With regard only to “frangible” rounds, there is a very good reason ZERO police departments issue it. It fails every ballistics test thrown at it. It simply doesn’t induce stops reliably. There are SCIENTIFIC reasons behind the FBI/IWBA test protocols. It doesn’t matter if the person doing the shooting is a cop or someone defending their home. Anatomy and terminal ballistics aren’t magically altered by pinning a badge on someone.
Yeah, yeah, we know…
Before you start posting your “expert opinion” as fact, you might want to actually have some expertise to back it up. One round, from ANY firearm, even to vital organs, is not a guarantee. You might also want to read up on Sergeant Timothy Gramins. He shot a suspect FOURTEEN TIMES(both lungs, the liver, a kidney, the diaphragm and his HEART) and the guy was still trying to kill him. It took another 3 headshots to finally induce a stop.
Are you truly so daft to believe just one of your “super special” bullet, that fails any measure of terminal ballistics testing, is “effective”. If only the police knew how “effective” frangible ammo was, they would issue it to all officers. No more news stories of police shooting criminals 8,9,15 times. Sergeant Gramins could have ended the whole thing just by winging the bad guy with your magic bullet, sending him hurtling though the air unable to fight back, saving the other 32 rounds he expelled defending his life for another day.
The SCIENTIFIC FACT remains, for the best odds of STOPPING an assailant, rounds need to be capable of penetrating 12-13 inches of gel(the equivalent of muscle and bone protecting vital organs/CNS).
Again, 6 inches of penetration through BARE gel by 9mm frangible and a pathetic 7 inches from the 10mm video you posted earlier…You call that an “Effective” round?
I think you lack the intelligence it takes to figure out what problem is being solved here. In 30 seconds I can put 37 shots in a six inch plate from 25 meters with one mag change, that is slow shooting since my target is a little ways away from me… whatever I shoot at with my pistol is getting hit multiple times.
The issue you bubba’s with your AR love affair can’t seem to get past your low brow is the penetration is through a barrier commonly found in homes, drywall…not any kind of gel ( tug on your shoulders, that pop? It is your head coming of your ass. Wow. Go figure.) A .223 is going through 16 sheets of drywall…a stray shot is getting your dumb ass sued until you are dead broke if you are lucky, unlucky? Welcome to pound you in the ass prison if you kill a neighbor with your AR frenzy.
The problem is firing a high velocity round .223 in a home in a desnsely populated area, missing, and hitting an unintended target.
You sacrifice with frangible ammo some penetration into your soft target…not much though, the whole frangible round is going to explode inside the target and the wound channel is going to be short and nasty…the next six to 10 rounds that follow that first one will only put the nails into the coffin.
And, WOW! Again, not a single frangible round like that spoken of will strike an unintended target.
THAT is the point. Dumbass.
Now try doing that under REAL life or death stress, in a dimly lit room, half awake with rounds/an assailant/MULTIPLE assailants incoming. Try doing it while shielding/moving your wife and kids. Try making that mag change while someone is attempting to wrestle the gun from you. Then come back and tell us lowly mortals how much more “effective” a handgun is than a rifle.
Not that you’ll do it, since it doesn’t fit your preconceived notions of what REALLY happens in a gun fight, but take 5 minutes to ACTUALLY READ the link I shared in my last post about Sgt. Gramins. He was wide awake, not taken by surprise, spotlight trained on the suspect, “A master firearms instructor and a sniper on his department’s Tactical Intervention Unit” and he still missed with 50% of his rounds. The initial 14 rounds(JHP’s that ARE capable of reaching vital organs/CNS) that did make contact, included 6 that would prove fatal over time, FAILED to STOP the attack. But I’m sure the mighty BoomerSquid can do better 
That fight lasted 56 seconds and a total of 54 rounds were fired. Not one struck Sgt. Gramins, but if you’re so concerned with “over-penetration” of building materials wouldn’t you want to STOP the assailant before he puts 21 rounds through one of your walls and into your kids room(because his cheap FMJ’s WILL over-penetrate walls and remain lethal)? Two “high velocity” rifle rounds hitting center mass, unlike gimmick ammo, almost guarantees taking the fight out of said shitbag. Hydrostatic shock is a bitch.
Long guns are FASTER on target, FASTER at follow-up shots and inherently more ACCURATE. That means LESS misses, LESS stray bullets and LESS risk of collateral damage.
READ the SCIENCE behind the Tueller drill. You have about 1.5 seconds to stop the average attacker before they can close a distance of 21 feet(a large bedroom) and deliver a FATAL injury with an edged/blunt instrument. Now put a gun in his hands. READ the SCIENCE with regard to the difference between ACTION and REACTION times.
What the round does AFTER passing through drywall is what matters. I’ve already shown .22LR from a pistol passing through 12 sheets of drywall. That doesn’t make it an EFFECTIVE defensive round, nor does it mean that it remains LETHAL after doing so.
I’ve linked to video of your precious DRT frangible penetrating further through gel(retianing MORE lethality) than .223 defensive rounds AFTER passing through an equivalent number of drywall panels(something you initially claimed DRT would “never” even do).
I’ve provided SCIENTIFIC DATA backed up by ACTUAL ballistic testing with regard to the effectiveness of bullets at STOPPING an attacker.
I’ve provided REAL WORLD use and case studies that prove handgun rounds in general and DRT in particular(or any round that penetrates less than FBI standards) are NOT a reliable “fight stopper”.
I’ve provided EVIDENCE that .223/5.56 is MUCH MORE EFFECTIVE, round for round, than any handgun.
I’ve provided citations pointing out that .223/5.56 DEFENSIVE ROUNDS are LESS hazardous, with regard to over-penetration of building materials than handgun rounds.
Yet I’m the one with his head up his ass?
You like to preach from some imagined position of authority. You seem to think you know exactly what will invariably happen if I used .223/5.56 to defend myself in my home.
Do you know where I live(City/Suburbs/Rural)?
Do you know how my home is constructed(Wood/Masonry/Adobe)?
Do you know where the various rooms are situated in my home(How many floors/Layout)?
Do you know where my neighbors homes are situated or what’s between theirs and mine(Parking lot/Woodlands/Hills/The Hoover dam)?
You must, you’re all knowing, right?
You…,223 through the walls. pound you in the ass Federal prison. Get used to soap on a rope, bubba.
“READ the SCIENCE behind the Tueller drill.”
Turtle drill, ever heard of it? Stops a knife attacker…the most you get is a foot or ankle wound, and you get a dead attacker.
So now, at worst, negligent homicide is a “FEDERAL” crime? Did you get your law degree from the same place you attained your dual masters in biology and physics? I’d ask for a refund.
Convenient that you ignore the part where i said “NOW PUT A GUN IN HIS HAND”.
You ignore the FACT an assailant just might be faster/stronger/a better fighter than the Mighty BoomerSquid(delusions of grandeur much?).
You ignore the FACT that it might not even be you in the fight, but your wife/daughter/mother(though I’m sure they’re all super marksmen/cage fighting/ninja bad asses, right?).
You ignore the REAL possibility of more than 1 assailant(but they always come at you single file like a Bruce Lee movie, right?).
And THIS(I said edged/blunt weapon, not knife, didn’t I?) is going to cause a bit more than a few “superficial” wounds to your feet or ankles.
By the way, good luck NOT shooting yourself in one of your flailing legs while trying to deflect a weapon with your feet, but I hear femoral arteries are like appendixes, not really all that important.
Alas, all of this is moot. Early in this thread I challenged you to point to a SINGLE agency that authorizes “frangible” rounds for patrol officers. You HAVEN’T, and you WONT, because you CAN’T. Instead, you all but made the grand declaration that the universe alters the very fabric of ballistics and human anatomy when a badge is pinned on the shooter. You’ve all but claimed on high that said badge, somehow, allows officers to ignore missed rounds.
You wont(because you can’t) present one stitch of EVIDENCE to back up your claims about the EFFECTIVENESS of “frangible” handgun ammo, aside from how “nasty” that shallow wound will look.
You wont(because you can’t) present any EVIDENCE that handgun rounds, and “frangible” ones in particular, are more EFFECTIVE “fight stoppers” than .223/5.56.
You wont(because you can’t) argue my POINT that a long gun is inherently more ACCURATE, FASTER on target, EASIER to retain and EASIER to shoot.
You wont, simply because you can’t. Instead, through your frustration and failed attempts to deflect FACTS, you sling insults and rhetoric. When faced with FACTS you don’t like, you change the question. When other fail to simply fall in line, you make a base appeal to “YOUR AUTHORITAH!!!”.
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