Betrayal

Open Carry Religion
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It came up yesterday that both Judas and Peter betrayed Jesus.

I’d never thought of the two of them in that same sense before, trying to grasp how the end results of both differed so much is difficult.

I’m wondering if anyone else has ever thought or discussed this, and what the difference may be believed to be.

The person I was speaking with thought the difference was Peter believed he could be forgiven where Judas did not

All I find to consider for myself are their responses

Thoughts?

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Peter repented but Judas did not. Why? Depends a bit on your Theological bent. Faith and Repentance are gifts from God administered by the Holy Spirit, Acts 11:18 Romans 2:4. Judas’ betrayal was determined by Scripture, Acts 1:16. I believe it is a mystery as to why one repents and expresses Faith in God while the next rejects God. I am just thankful for God’s Mercy and Grace that found me and I have received it.
Dr. Gordon Edgington put it this way: “The Sovereignty of God and the Freewill of man meet at the foot of the Cross”

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The suicide removed the opportunity, demonstrated regret for certain, so is this a matter of not forgiving yourself then, unable to live with your own guilt further robbing yourself of the possibility of forgiveness?

Peter denied three times, (omne trium perfectum - every perfect thing is threefold) he then said he loved Jesus three times after the resurrection, which was when Christ commanded he feed the people

Was this a confession of love repentance, then taking the responsibility of feeding a penance?

Jesus is a great high priest

was Peter the first to receive the sacrament of reconciliation and penance in the new church?

Interesting, I’m not familiar with that doctrine, not seeing it as quoted

This is when it was made clear Peter salvation is for gentiles, that who God hath cleansed (through Jesus), to not call common, again, omne trium perfectum

That is a super heavy verse in context

One I used during my conversion.

Shall I judge the Pope to not be following the teaching of Christ?

I know of some places where gifts are listed, 1 Corinthians 12 & 14, but don’t see
faith and repentance directly listed as gifts, John 14:26 does say the spirit will teach all things, bring them to remembrance, so I could not offer they are not taught, faith does seemed to be learned through experience, and certainly remembering what is a sin should work to bring about repentance, considering who died to pay the penalty.

Interesting phrase :grin:

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If I recall correctly, judas acted maliciously against the MESSIYAH, whereas Peter wasn’t a malicious person…:thinking:

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So intent, that’s good :+1:

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Absolutely, contrary to the mistaken old adage, I do not believe that the road to “hell” or Damnation is paved with Good intemtions.

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The gifts of the Holy Spirit spoken of in I Corinthians is speaking of gifts given to believers for service. The gift of Faith and Repentance to an unbeliever is what I was referring to.
As far as the Pope goes, I am not a Catholic nor do I agree with Catholic Theology. I have not the ability nor the command to judge other people the Pope will stand before Christ as every other person will and be judged by Christ.

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I still don’t comprehend, are faith/repentance not required from us to accept the gift (grace)?

But it comes from scripture, if we count substance and word value the Catholic bible is the closest one to the actual 1611 with their 80 books each.

If you don’t have either you’ve likely been robbed of a 1/3 of your bible, no more omni trium perfectum

I wish the Catholic bible were in fact the 1611 but its not forbidden and acceptable for me to use, though my priest is confused and doesn’t understand my use of it.

That’s a tough statement to hear

Now, that is for a future day we don’t know when, but its good to prepare for that day, is it not?

Again, tough statement to hear

He is the Savior

by that man whom he hath ordained

Here’s the tricky part to comprehend

Jesus is the propitiation for our sins, Gods Son, through forebearance of God

Winked at, what does that mean to you?

Think of propitiation more like a man, it terms of name dropping, when we pray we do so in the name of Jesus, his authority, if God favors His Son, as He does, we gain that favor by name dropping, if I come to you and said your son told me you would help me with a problem, you would give me the time you would not give me if I came in my own name, and appeared dirty, smelly, and just plain bad, make sense?

There’s a lot of scripture written in the 80 books, much has been ignored, or explained away in a method people don’t question, because its difficult

I recommend looking again, seeking, asking, diligently

The faith will be the hard part if you’ve long rejected the Pope, but if you let go and let God, He will guide you.

If you think that’s crazy, just read this

And good news, you can keep whatever bible you want, I recommend the 1611

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Catholic Theology does not come from the Bible, they teach the church councils and the Pope are on equal ground with the Bible.

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“To whom much is given much will be required” Because the Bible was not complete at this juncture God dealt with sin accordingly. However now man is without excuse.

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Judas the bible say allowed the devil to enter into him.
And then in Matthew’s Gospel
Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
Matthew:27:3

…repented himself…
He lacked the ability to ask God for forgiveness.
He was sorry but lacked Godly Sorrow.
Peter was sorry and wept bitterly And the Lord turned, and looked upon Peter. And Peter remembered the word of the Lord, how he had said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.
Luke:22:61
Peter remembered the word of the Lord Judas did not .
He merely had guilt and hung himself

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I have been reading my Bible through multiple times a year for over 47 years. I was a Pastor for over 11 years and have graduated from Bible college.
You asked for a perspective on a Bible question and I gave you and answer from my perspective. I enjoy Bible discussion however I don’t want to get into argumentation, (I’m not accusing you of that) Just don’t want to go there. I’m fully confident in my doctrinal beliefs, not a know it all or unwilling to learn but on most doctrine I’m already convinced.

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Rejection of the Pope @Robert is no where … (not versus in authority or some such but the actual Pope) mentioned in the Bible as the thing contrary to God that will cause eternal seperation.

I know what you will say @Robert but how does one go from Grace in Christ Jesus to Subjection to a Man(Pope) ?
I truly want to understand your reasoning .
How did you arrive at this.
Did someone tell you that is what you shpuld do . Or what you was reading?

How do Catholics or the Catholic church suppose they are right and others wrong. What ensures they have it right.?
If ya want to know what I think .
Confusion is what that causes and it also produces an extra yoke that was lifted .
No longer was a earthly preist needed.
What ya think?
I really just want to know how you feel about that.

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This is not easy to hear either, because it is in part true, the bible did not come first, it is a written record, God came first, His Word

So, now consider, what is living and breathing, the Word, or what is written, penned?

Or, how can it first be written, it is not, it is established, then written, so does the Church first establish because it is alive, do we need any bibles if we have a living Church?

I made the case for that above, do not worship the created over the creator, its upside down, inverted, backwards, the Church was what Jesus created new, the New Testament as we think of it is a collection of books, that is wrong, it is the blood of our Savior, the books are there and are profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, they are not a substitute for Church, they are the word but not the Word, we are blessed when we have both

When you reject the Pope you reject the word and you reject the Word.

Now second, it absolutely does, its what you see me quote here, but it requires something very particular to see, it is so astonishing to behold, and the pieces are there, but the arrangement needs work

I love hellfire damnation preaching, how about you?

A good old fashion man of God on fire, preaching what boastfulness and pride nets

What arrangement needs work?

We’ve seen it before

Why did such a great man with such great stature and accreditation, who knew in his heart who he was speaking to, why did this man not know?

Already convinced, nothing more to learn, nothing more to know?

Thank you greatly, I wish to think of myself and any protestant like long time drinking buddies, who know in their hearts they are bothers, who love laugh and live together, who share a foxhole and have each others six, but one day one buddy stops drinking and discovers a new life, he only wants his great friend to stop drinking and share it with him.

If you can put away your bible degree and all your doctrinal beliefs, ask God in your prayer closet for more grace, for knowledge and wisdom and listen, start a 12 step program like a drunk, remembering therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works, you may see something truly glorious while you are alive

Do you know what it means to be hindered?

Who seeks to hinder believers the most?

And how does any lawyer, past or present hinder your entering the kingdom?

What is that knowledge?

What does it mean to reject it?

If a lawyer, a worldly lawyer can hinder you, do you trust a worldly bible college?

What if Luther was one of the greatest…

… greatest false prophets?

Who in the last 500 years single-handedly sowed more discord than Luther?

How does an anti-Semite demonstrate love for their brother and emulate Christ at the same time?

Sometimes I feel like Ozzy knows

Nobody ever told me, I found out for myself
You gotta believe in foolish miracles

And I truly wish I could tell you everything, someday I may be able to, but if you don’t believe in foolish miracles I don’t think you’d ever hear me or understand

Absolute faith.

A pure simple faith, one that God has them and will not let go, I’m continually amazed at Mass, recently at my daughters confirmation I sat up front, I’m not a front row sitter, but there I was, and the view, it was almost sickening, so many feeble and infirmed people going through the communion line, one man had to be fully helped, and it hit me, this is what it was like when Jesus walked the earth, all those same people going to Him, it brings near tears to think of it, I never see it from the back.

I believe you, where does the wind blow?

Do you think faith can be fully reasoned?

At some point, like Indiana Jones you have to step out on the name of God blindly, let go and let God, and then He will show you His ways, His reasoning, and His ways are not our ways.

We would have surely all drank well together

brothers.

I’ve largely stopped doing this, people don’t seem to see it

but since we’re up drinking, here’s one for Ozzy :tumbler_glass: :beers: :hugs:

People look to me and say
Is the end near, when is the final day?
What’s the future of mankind?
How do I know, I got left behind

Everyone goes through changes
Looking to find the truth
Don’t look at me for answers
Don’t ask me, I don’t know

How am I supposed to know
Hidden meanings that will never show
Fools and prophets from the past
Life’s a stage and we’re all in the cast

You gotta believe in someone
Asking me who is right
Asking me who to follow
Don’t ask me, I don’t know
I don’t know
I don’t know
I don’t know

Nobody ever told me, I found out for myself
You gotta believe in foolish miracles
It’s not how you play the game, it’s if you win or lose
You can choose
Don’t confuse
Win or lose
It’s up to you
It’s up to you
It’s up to you
It’s up to you
Go, go, go

People look to me and say
Is the end near, when is the final day?
What’s the future of mankind?
How do I know, I got left behind, I’m lost

Everyone goes through changes
Looking to find the truth
Don’t look at me for answers
Don’t ask me, I don’t know

And a couple for old Indy to

No more videos now, before I relapse :laughing:

Sorry, I should answer this, what was Christ if not obedient?

If I seek to be like Christ can I be disobedient?

What does scripture say about it, a lot, and if you believe it, listen to the parables and truly believe, then His authority was left to His servants, and the powers that be are ordained by God, and I must be subject not just for conscience sake, but also for wrath.

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Closed his eyes to or overlooked to a certain degree. As I explained earlier God hold those with greater witness to greater standard. This statement was made not to Jews but to Gentiles in Athen’s who were thoroughly pagan. They did not have the Law and Prophets (Old Testament) that the Jews had so God did not hold the Pagan Gentiles to the same standard that He did the Jews.

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Ok, lets press on, do an exercise, maybe an exorcise :hugs:

Using you as an example, your extensive history

and your position

and your firmness with this

Lets, in this exercise makes some general assumptions.

Lets assume you’ve neglected Catholic theology, maybe even as I had, its just where you began, but you stuck with it despite having the scriptures as you do, and reading them as you have, preaching from them, and you missed the Catholic connection.

So you never joined Her, never received any sacraments to ready yourself for Him according to those sacraments, remember, its just an exercise with assumptions, during it we’ll assume Peter was the first Pope, and received the first

So all these 2k years the Church has been feeding His people as a penance, feeding them Himself

A literal ‘you are what you eat’ it reads indeed, indeed means truly and in reality

So, again, despite how we understand, and even Peter who walked right alongside Him did not understand and was rebuked…

…rebuked for not understanding, so in this exercise we assume his rejection of Christ was to place him in this explicit position, to ready His people, and they, willingly subject and obedient prepared themselves

In this exercise you ‘prepared not himself’ , never received any sacraments, Church doctrine etc

Allow me to continue, you and anyone reading may be here for a reason

When two or more are gathered in my name, name means authority, the Church has the authority and bestows it on whom She will, binding on earth as in heaven

So you and a priest are gathered, you confess your sins and the priest absolves you, this is done, the two of you in His name through the delegation of authority, remember the greatest faith seen in Israel was delegation of authority

Peter, first to have done it, empowered to do it to others,

so they can prepare themselves, and feeds them through a process of faith known as transubstantiation,

so they can prepare themselves, this is a second sacrament, would all of this not prepare you to appear before God as His Son?

Communion and Confession

You do not want to take communion without recognizing what it is you do

Or being prepared by Her.

Remember, She has been the same for 2k years, the reformation is not even 500 years old?

It began with a rebellious…

antisemite and a King who need a divorce

so rebellion and adultery

Beaten with many stripes, cast into outer darkness

This verse is long contended, and rightly so, to deny Jesus came in the flesh

But prior to the reformation the Christian faith professed that communion was the real blood and flesh of our Lord, only since the reformation has that been denied., by protestants, not the Catholic or Orthodox faith, the latter uses leavened bread.
What does He say?

I use this site to look up words like indeed

https://1828.mshaffer.com

The default word is importance

But its the basis for many King James dictionaries as well

My point was He does what He wants, He gives favor to His Son, the Lamb, the Lion, the only one worthy, the one you do not want to deny before men.

I pray this is a good exorcise.

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Yes and No the Word of God came first even in the Garden and later to the apostles to help guide the church,but also the Book of Isaiah was present and had been for 100’s of years at the time of Jesus Christ advent on the third rock from the Sun called Earth. Also the Pentatuach with the law was present Apostle paul, Peter and other apostles quoted from it many times many of the old prophet writings also .

Boasting of the grace of God and his mercies and saving grace . And Pride in the fact you have Jesus as your saviour your father your friend

Absolutely :100: %
BIBLE= Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth.
We need the word to help guide us.

I dont think he was saying that.
I think he was saying at peace with God and his relationship with Him ,resting in his promises. I feel the same.

Those lawyers referred to in this passage are Pharasees and they were very versed in the old testament scriptures.
But were only interested in money and social status.As they had turned the law into a means of wealth through selling sacrifices .

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So we’re on the same page, Word is Jesus, word is characters inscribed. correct?

This is why I seek to impress verses like …

These children of the kingdom, do you believe they too boasted?

What did those children lack that caused them to be cast out?

Or rather, what may they have an abundance of?

Satan had great pride in what God had done for him, how God had created him, was he too not cast out?

I can’t argue its value, or advise anyone go without, particularly as a foundation, as it is not living it does not change, which is what you want for a foundation, something solid, and why I cling to my 1611, and I can not seem to express how beautiful the church is to someone who does not know, how valuable, but the church is what Jesus established, if I had to choose between the two I’d choose the church, but I’ve also had the opportunity to hide the word, something I’d never want to deprive anyone of.

Perhaps not, but has he contemplated the children cast into outer darkness?
Have you?

Does he grasp what it means to resist the powers ordained by God, do you?

The church is scary to a bible believing protestant, I know, and protestants are children of the kingdom, how can they not be when they confess the same as those believers in His church, but they do not believe in a church that preceded their system that existed for 1500 years ahead of theirs.

Ok, as I see it you can believe in one, the other, or both.

If you believe first the RCC you believe in something 2k years old
If you reject the RCC you believe in something 500 years old

And what it you believe both?

Can you truly believe in both?

If you believe there was salvation for the 1500 years before the reformation then why dare change that?

Seriously, change the plan of salvation?

You say, “well that was not the church” no? please show how it existed in any other form.

If you declare it grew for 300 years, then at Romes adoption it hid, went underground, until the reformation, then please show how.

And also explain what those martyrs died for before Rome adopted it, was their blood and their lives not accounted towards that adoption?

:cricket:

So for 1500 years salvation was the church, then the reformation came and it was declared She was wrong and you can do it yourself.

If She was wrong then 1500 years worth of souls are doomed, only for the last 500 years have people found salvation, and in the largest assortment of denominations with the largest assortment of bible perversions.

And you believe both?

Remember, narrow is the way, straight is the gate.

I promise you this without equivocation and with the utmost assurance…

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What I believe is irregardless of wether a person went to RCC or Baptist, Methodist, pentacostal etc… if they Belived with the heart and confessed with their mouth that God Raised Jesus from the Grave . Then they made it .
I dont believe any church writes the check.
I believe Jesus is the one who fills the signature line.

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I get it

But why 80 books with so simple a message, why not one short book?

Why one book that reads as you said, reads as above, and one that reads

One that accredits no works

One that maintains they are needed

Can a rich man not enter heaven, it reads as pretty difficult, are there not many rich men who believe and profess, does their wealth not contribute to their belief?

How do you dare tell that rich man he believes erroneously?

That’s the thing, you don’t, and neither do I tell you, but you show that rich man scriptures he may not have seen, to take them apart and inspect how they work, what they mean, why they’re there, and you hope that rich man says, huh, I never read it that way, I’ll take another look.

They too made it, they are there

and then they’re not, why, look where those two verses are essentially hidden

how do they even fit in that chapter?

Read

Then the gathering in heaven, then the ejection from heaven, and back to the Roman soldier

Explain this “they made it” and then got the boot?

I mean, you make it or you don’t make it, right?

Explain different books with different versions, confess and believe, believe and be baptized

Explain verses seemingly hidden out of context from other verses?

And I don’t mean explain them to me, but to take them apart for yourself, see how they work.

No, flesh and blood did not reveal it

According to how its described to me that’s the verse that explains it all, explains how Peter was not Pope, and yet it is how I came to believe Peter was Pope.

Ironic huh?

The church added another member, myself, upon that revelation, and again, its told to me that’s how the protestant church is formed, I don’t get it, I live what you preach, makes no sense to me at all.

I’m a bit confused on Catholic evangelism, I see Hospitals, Food pantries, Abortion opposition, nothing like Mormons or JW’s who go door to door, not familiar with Catholic revivals or street preaching, how do they get new members?

How does it sustain 2k years without evangelism?

Where is the calling?

Religion is funny, some won’t talk about it, some wont shut up about it, some accept it all, some reject it all,

A few here do talk about it, right now we discuss our differences, which seems easy as I was once a good protestant, bible thumping, Jesus this that and the other, but now largely left the bible authority behind, in a manner of speaking ,

And believe in the Church, that’s all I seek to share, its not easy, lots of flak

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