Caliber debate of the week: 9mm vs .45 ACP(feel free to derail)

:popcorn:

  • 9mm
  • .45 ACP

0 voters

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Some of the sources used:

Old FBI study
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

Newer FBI sudy:

More:

http://soldiersystems.net/2014/09/25/fbi-9mm-justification-fbi-training-division/

The article is talking about modern SD ammo, not ball ammo.

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Having some GSW experience, [the hood is good for something] I have to say shot placement is a huge factor.
One client - 6- 9’s and walking around VERY pissed off
Another one - DOA 1-.25 auto right under the eyebrow.

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Is this a new subtle 9mm vs 45 thread?

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No idea what youre talking about …

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Right out of the master baiters handbook

deny deny deny :shushing_face:

good move :chess_pawn:

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If youre reading a book on master baiting make sure its not wrote by a guy next time…and remember, for self defense buy a Glock not an antique.

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:rofl:

I’ve never even seen you post a pic of a handgun. Do you shoot pistols?

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How quickly you forget, just post two sig pics and one glock for you to go off on all these sig threads. the booze is destroying brain cells. you should stop drinkin before the one you have left is gone. :stuck_out_tongue:

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and yes, I got the gist of you sayin the gay gun was mine.lol

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Well then, it didn’t work, at least for me. BTDT. No argument exists.

For years I carried in my truck a .357 loaded with 125gr HPs. It worked fine the few times I needed it to dispatch sick or injured animals. Heck, a .380 with ball even worked once but that was all I had.

For more years I carried a 1911 in .45ACP flavor. I never had to use it for SD so it worked fine.

Now I carry a 9mm, and at least in testing on hate filled water jugs it works fine, same as the .45 did. I hope I never need to use it for SD but I carry it all the same.

When the wife and I go for walks I’ll take along a .22 on up to .50. Oddly enough, when I do have vermin to dispatch I’ll be carrying the .22. So statistically, at least by my red neck statistics and experience, when going for a walk the .22 is far and away the best cartridge and kills far more vermin than any other cartridge. Would I want to be hit by a .22? No. But if I was expecting 2 footed sick animals would it be my first choice? No to that as well. I’d want something more designed to alter attitude.

OK, done with the ridiculous bit. There is no hydrostatic shock unless one gets up near 2000fps, so (and I’ve written this before elsewhere to lots of misunderstanding) all handgun bullets below that shock threshold all pretty much operate the same, as stated in the first video. For me anyway, if I’m carrying for SD I ask myself if I’d want to be hit by it. That’s not perfect because I wouldn’t want to be hit with a pellet or even a BB, but you get my drift.

Todays ammo isn’t the ammo of 30 years ago and even .380 could be considered for SD. But I limit my choices to 9mm or .45ACP today, most times it’ll be 9mm due to round count and the sheer number of crazies walking around today. I’ll say it again, I hope I never need to use what I carry. The feces will have really hit the fan, think zombies, if I ever need what I carry. I’ve never needed more than 1 round in the past, so to need 40 rounds would be almost unthinkable, yeah, zombies.

Do I feel undergunned with 9mm instead of .45? No. I’ve done testing and the water jugs don’t really act any differently when hit by either one assuming proper bullet construction. Too, I compete with 9mm and I can ventilate steel and cardboard pretty fast and accurately with 9mm. But I can do the same with .45, I just need to recharge the gun more frequently. Would I have a preference regarding what I would want to get hit by, 9mm or .45? No. I wouldn’t want to be the bullet trap for either one and no matter the bullet construction and no matter where I’d be hit.

What pays off, IMO, is accuracy, sufficient power, and placement to make the power available do it’s job. Hit right a .22RF will kill a deer deader than a doornail but it wouldn’t be my first choice for deer hunting and the shot would need to be exactly right; accuracy, sufficient power, and placement and the first and last overlap. Train, train , train. Competition helps and as long as one can handle the knowledge that shooting while moving is NOT the same as shooting at static paper (it can be devastating to the ego when learns that one actually sux!), one can learn and get better. Unless one thinks that in a confrontation everyone will be standing still, in which case, shooting while being static, and at a static target is exactly what one needs to practice.

But caliber/cartridge? Any argument there exists to convince the person arguing the correctness of his/her choice. :smiley: Many years ago, when I was barely out of my single digit years and not yet even a teenager, I would peruse the outdoor magazines and compare tabular cartridge data to find the perfect hunting cartridge, very similar to the argument of the perfect SD round. Then I got some experience and read Jack O’Connor and Jeff Cooper, but mostly O’Connor back then. He stated that it was bullet construction and placement. There was no magic cartridge. When I finally was able to get out of my armchair and get some experience I realized the correctness of that statement. The SD cartridge discussion could be opened up to hunting because the answer is much the same and O’Connor wrote it all those decades ago. There is no magic cartridge, it’s bullet construction and placement, and I’ll add sufficient power to get the job done and the person behind the gun who can get the job done without getting rattled.

Re: rattled… I compete and while I’m not a top shooter by any means, I’m too old to be running around and never had proper training, but I can hold my own. I’m known to be very accurate and I’m working on my speed. I’m getting to my point. Every once in awhile the Texas star is part of a stage. I love the Texas Star. For me anyway all it is pressure and staying cool under it. I see fellow competitors and the trepidation they have for it before we even start the stage. Then I explain to them how to shoot it. I leave out the “stay frosty” part because that’s all any competition is and they should know that already. Just do what you can already do and do it over and over, pretty simple, huh? Then I demonstrate to them how easy it is. Their shooting of it goes to feces and they wind up chasing the star. What was the difference? Staying frosty and seeing it just as another series of shots; accuracy, power, and placement. I’m not terribly fast but I make up for that with efficiency, I wait for the star to rotate “to me”, but in my relaxed method of shooting it I’m pretty fast and all the targets are in a nice little pile. Training helps but since I don’t have that experience makes up for it. I know that I can break down each shot into things that I can do, don’t let it rattle me, and that makes me pretty fast at a high pressure target. I don’t let the, “But what if I miss and have to chase the targets” get to me. Each target as it rotates is done correctly and I know that I can do it, so the “what ifs” aren’t an issue.

Cartridges and SD are pretty much the same. Accuracy, power enough, placement. Cartridge arguments? They don’t exist unless one is still in the armchair IMO. But real world? Accuracy, power enough, and placement are what counts. Heck, even a .22 can be used for SD. Not my first choice, but I bet I can put enough 40 grain slugs into the pumpkin to change attitudes in a jiffy. Just stay frosty and place each shot and do it fast by moving 'slow". The cartridge argument never arises.

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Dick, you also said those were random pics off the internet ,not yours .

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:+1: thanks for the input. All of that makes sense.
I honestly am pretty settled on 9mm and 10mm but .45 acp is pretty cool though.

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I took that as intended to be lego blocks until I read the ps

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He said its his gun, its probably colored like that because he holsters it in his poop chute

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For some reason it’s not loading up for me. But I’m curious on what it says about the 9mm cause I’ve literally seen thick coats stop them

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