Exchanged life, not a changed life

You might here a “Pentecostal” say something like

Surrender your life to Jesus

It doesn’t work that way. The Father wants nothing to do with your no good rotten self. (That includes me) He will not look upon iniquity. The Lord Jesus Christ surrendered his life on your behalf, and the Father accepted it. He exchanged his perfect sinless life for lying, cheating, stealing, scumbags that we are. He became guilty of our murder, adultery, idolatry, the most vile things imaginable. I realize most of us here may not have done everything on the list. But if you looked with lust, and you have, you have committed adultery already in your heart.

He cried out on the cross, killing two birds with one stone,

My God my God, why have you forsaken me?

He was showing the world he is who he says he is, and because the Father turned his back on him as he became guilty of our sin. He died, he was separated from the Father, according to the scriptures.

If you actually read a lot of the New Testament, you will see many apparent contradictions. They are as real as you think they are. It is argued here and every where you are allowed to bring up the Bible. James said faith without works is dead. Paul said if you work, it is now counted as debt. So who is right? They both are. James is looking forward to the redemption of Israel, the nation as a whole. James also stated in the future Israel shall be saved, as the gentiles already are. There are 2 NT churches, with one foundation and one house.


Well you offer a lot to work with, a bit light on supporting evidence of two churches though :thinking:
I actually see none :man_shrugging:

But in the spirit of iron sharpening iron I’ll go through what you posted

I would say that’s quite inaccurate, why else would He sacrifice His only begotten Son to save us?

What are the two?

As I see only one, the role of living victim.

I hope we don’t argue, that’s not conducive to learning, whats the difference, that’s easy, do you digest with open ears and an open mind what the other party is saying or are you doing all the saying?

To go from protestant to catholic I could not go to Catholics and preach what I knew, how can one hear if one is speaking?

I had to go and listen, then of course compare what was said to scripture and other resources, to try the spirits.

I believe here there is a misunderstanding, and that the works spoke of are works that take the place of Jesus, an attempt to replace or substitute his salvation, it is tricky, as Paul writes being circumcised places you under the law, and then you’re obligated to do the whole law, and that you are then fallen from grace,

If that is 100% as written then those of us who are circumscribed are in for a rough go are we not?

But, if we consider that the intent is not to substitute Jesus, then that circumcision counts for nothing

James is a short book, where in it would indicate that to you?

What indicates or better yet can actually explain Jews have a separate salvation aside from that of Jesus?

And separate, what supports the idea of

If I were to have to consider that I would consider one true and one false, but I don’t believe you mean to portray that.

So, if you mean as I believe you do, if Jews have a different church I question why a spiritual blindness at all, one that is lifted when you accept the lord?

If they are blind, and that is removed with accepting Jesus, what second church is there?

What need would there be?

One foundation surely, but one house?

is house not an assembled nation, and do not all nations (of believers) assemble to make the whole church,

“one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church”

That is the confession of faith required to be Catholic

I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible. I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages. God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father; through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven, and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered death and was buried, and rose again on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and his kingdom will have no end. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, who has spoken through the prophets. I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.

I pray you study it, if you can find no fault, to take a step towards it, the church, to answer that knock

While there is still time

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So Israelite and gentile is a societal construct not found in the Bible? Interesting. As Tucker Carlson only recently discovered, debate with the demon possessed is pointless.

I would say that’s quite inaccurate, why else would He sacrifice His only begotten Son to save us?

Because he will have nothing to do with your no good rotten self. Go ahead and stand in front of him. I will laugh at your calamity.

I believe here there is a misunderstanding…it is tricky

So says one whose goal is to deceive. It doesn’t mean what it says according to you. And with that, I shake the dust.

7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.


I thought I’d seen signs of a softer disposition,I was wrong.

My bad.

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Anyhow, if we post something we need to be ready for countering viewpoints and or correction, I personally don’t promote debate or arguing, but do promote constructive discourse.

To that end I feel my replies were on target, one addendum I’d like to make is on that of who James wrote to, perhaps to help reveal more of his motives.

That’s an easy task

In that you’re saying

Is note worthy, but again, a short book, so lets find where he is actually doing what you say, and on the way, highlight a few verses

Here we are, James looking forward to the redemption of Israel

We know this as the second coming, a harvest, what we don’t see explained is how there are two churches to harvest.

Do you still contend that there are two, or can you settle with assurance there is only one?

Apostolic means pertaining to the apostles, if there are two churches it should be found in the New Testament gospels, it does not appear to be in James.

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According to Phil.3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

And Cor.

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians:15:52-57

The Body we currently have is gonna be a glorified & incorruptible body. The old body gone.

I tend to think we will look similar .
Peter and the Sons of Thunder were able to recognize Moses and Elijah on the mount of transfiguration.

And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them. And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them. And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
But our bodies will be glorified bodies. Eternal ones.


Its been a good number of days, thanks to Stan for bumping, no further engagement from you Nick?

Its your thread.

Have you not been received or listened to?

I get the feeling Christians, Protestant Christians believe there is no yoke, that we’re completely free to do 100% what we will, free will, and we are that free, we can elect to not , for now, do many things, but again, does that mean there is no yoke at all?

That we should be hedonists, follow hedonism?

What is the New Testament if not an instruction book?

The title of this post does not read well for me, nor does this

I don’t understand either, we were created in the image of our God, we then via free will sinned, but we can be cleansed and regenerated

Jesus upon His resurrection had the piercing in His hands, feet and side, His body was the same,

And for us, now is the time

We must renew our minds

The Old Testament was

  1. Theocracy
  2. Kingship (Saul/David after Gods rule was rejected)
  3. Law (Moses after Kings were rejected)

Where are we in the Church times now?

  1. Pope (vicar of Christ, porter in His absence)
  2. Kingship (reformation when Pope was rejected, Church framed via Kings rule)
  3. Law (constitution, rebellion of Kings rule, new Nation formed)

History repeats, Omne Trium Perfectum

So, with that view, and that the Church still standing after 2k years, with a succession since Peter

Even this Linus being such as the second Pope?

Should anyone seek an exchange of life, or seek a renewing of their mind to the things of God?

When you reject the Pope you take a serious gamble that he was not sent by Jesus

And blatantly go against the Gospel

Gospel means good news, does anyone think its wise to reject it?

I don’t believe that, although we do falter and fail from time to time .
Paul wrote much on the subject .
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
That whole chapter is really good for reading.
I cant sit here and say I have lived a perfect life or havent sinned I would be a liar.
I will say that these verses show us we need to remain steadfast and if we falter to get up and seek him and not trample the promise he gave us. Those who turn away are in danger.
I have always been taught and believe this is talking about those who literally reject what God gave them.
And seek perdition and sin.
If we had to live perfect lives we all better get used to the heat cause aint none of us making it.
I am just thankful for forgiveness.
Agree ?


I am thankful yes

However if you’re not subject to the powers that be as instructed, and therefore not obedient, and not accepting the Church can remit sins via delegation of authority, then are you forgiven?

Its a difficult thing to come to terms with, I was baptized Baptist, to think a minister could perform baptisms and not himself be subject as is written… doesn’t make a lot of sense

A baptism is a wonderful work to perform

Can it be that a minister works inequity?

When looking up the term want of rectitude or a deviation from rectitude come up in the first few definitions, and rectitude in part means exact conformity to truth.

Thereby, if, and I say if as its a question for the reader to answer for themselves, you included, to seek the answer to, is the Pope a power ordained by God, and the porter Jesus mentioned in His parable on the Son of Man taking a far journey…

If so, and you do not submit, then you deviate from exact conformity to truth, i.e. rectitude, i.e. inequity

The other part of that, 7:23 is I never knew you

That last verse

Is that how I know you as is spoken by Jesus?

That’s another sticking point for protestants, lack of faith that the Church can transubstantiate bread and wine into the flesh and blood of Jesus, i.e., lack of faith, unbelief.

The Church claims it

Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.

And I accept it.

Its a battle for souls, one by one, a lost sheep, a prodigal son, each precious and each celebrated in heaven when redeemed.

Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods;these are the times that try men’s souls.

What is that price?

Faith and obedience, that’s the real hellfire and damnation message.

In the Book of Acts we find this account.
And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert. And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship, Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet. Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth: In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth. And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.
So Philip was called and sent.
I too was called and sent.
We are both Subject to the same Christ Jesus .
I find no abnormalities or deviations there.

It isnt a lack of faith for truly Jesus /God/Holy Ghost can do anything.
But Jesus was not yet on the cross at the time of the last supper when the last supper occured .
So he taking the bread and wine and using them to represent his sacrifice for us was only showing us a way to help us remember .
" in remembrance of me "
It was intended as a reminder not a substitution.
Jesus already took care of the substitution we just need to remember.


No doubt a commandment, and certainly no wrong, however, neither is it complete

What does indeed mean to you?


Yes, we do it in remembrance, but we also do it for life

If you do not believe, there is no life, if you do not discern it “indeed” and only as a memorial then you do so with damnation to yourself

And he did it again, and as before concerning what we eat

This time concerning the Lords body.

Sounds like Catholics have a lot of requirements for salvation. Is there a list somewhere?


LOL, all quotes from the King James 1611, generally considered to be a protestant bible.


I take the Lords Supper from time to time and have my whole life. We typically take it every few months . Its not and every week thing. Although we did attend a Christian Church that took it every single sunday.


This is what I strive for, discussion, not debate or arguing.

Now, what you really need to consider, IMO, is that prior to the reformation was the great schism between east and west, and that schism was largely over communion.

But not that they differed on the real presence of Christ (indeed) but on whether leaven or unleavened bread should be used.

So prior to the protestant reformation in was believed in all Christian Churches that it is indeed the flesh and blood, and not spiritually as some now believe, but again “indeed”

He is not present typically, nor figuratively, nor by superabundant grace, as in the other Mysteries, nor by a bare presence, as some of the Fathers have said concerning Baptism, or by impanation, so that the Divinity of the Word is united to the set forth bread of the Eucharist hypostatically, as the followers of Luther most ignorantly and wretchedly suppose.

But truly and really, so that after the consecration of the bread and of the wine, the bread is transmuted, transubstantiated, converted and transformed into the true Body itself of the Lord, Which was born in Bethlehem of the ever-Virgin, was baptized in the Jordan, suffered, was buried, rose again, was received up, sits at the right hand of the God and Father, and is to come again in the clouds of Heaven; and the wine is converted and transubstantiated into the true Blood itself of the Lord, Which as He hung upon the Cross, was poured out for the life of the world.

Orthodox Confession of Dositheus, Patriarch of Jerusalem (1672)

You see, the Reformation was not truly a reformation, for that would mean the original itself was in fact changed, it was not, the reformation is the proverbial wolf in sheeps clothing

So you see, the reformation is opposed to both forms of Christianity that proceeded it, east and west, both of which believe they receive the real flesh and blood of our Lord, contrary to unbelief.

What does unbelief net a person?

Who benefits from leading believers to unbelief if not the one who hates God, and hates us who are made in His image?

Who operates in so slow and subtle a way?

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I like discussing, I learn you learn we learn about each other and about other matters related to the Gospel.
Some cannot be reconciled i am afraid.
However seeing things from other perspective helps one view each on the same team. I feel.
I have long said many who have believed in faith in Jesus will be there of many Christian faiths not just mine not just your.
For heaven holds no sign over the door saying welcome ______ religious order.



Some matters? Between us that’s not necessarily a big deal, between us and God… different matter.


But for how long?

But there is a doorman, a porter, and he will welcome you, if you accept him.

Is that any difference than Jesus Himself?

All you have to do is accept Jesus, right?

But He left, while He’s gone He placed a porter at the door

He placed a porter at the door

If you don’t come in by the door, through the porter, what way will you come in?

That’s what needs to be

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Three passages off the top of my head that tell me what is required for salvation. No porters, no institution, no substitutes. The way I read the Bible, the relationship between God and man is a one-on-one relationship with no hierarchy or intermediaries. Saved man’s job is to present the Gospel to those that haven’t heard it. Once it is heard, each person has a personal choice to make…accept or reject, and that choice determines the individual’s outcome.

Salvation is the easy part, it’s a free gift. It’s living a Christ-like life that is difficult. As a former Baptist, this should all sound familiar.


Paul tells us the Spirit is alive but the body is dead, because of sin. Reckon yourself dead to sin. Robert hasn’t. That is his problem.


You’ve posted well and true

You’ve now heard, these verses are not mainstream verses, they can not be, main stream preaching is anesthetic, the hearer becomes warm and fuzzy, lets their guard down, no reason not to, they are completely and utterly safe, these verses require you wake up, take notice.

I don’t have the ability to believe on anyone’s behalf, and my work is cut out for me to reach anyone, It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled, but should you put the time in, seek, you’ll find we’ve been deceived.

Satan, which deceiveth the whole world

Its an odd thing, the best I do to comprehend is to consider it a step, prior to being baptist I was at lower steps, but its all the same faith, same God, same Son, same Spirit, same Virgin, but the Church, the Bride is not the same, nothing short of beautiful describes her , I feel bad, I was hard on her, all I can do now is repent and be attentive, and try to reach others before its to late.

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