Just to update this old thread, the 7.5 barrel just doesn’t cut it, so I have a 12.5 on order and after I get it up and running I’ll come back to this and give my impressions of it. I have a linear comp on the 7.5 now, so flash and sound aren’t really the issue for me, but its lackluster energy.
It was a tough choice between 11.5 and 12.5.
@0311Bravo I’ve given some thought about the practical applications of an AR pistol. For me, I can’t really think of anything that a carbine can’t do better. I would be interested in hearing opposing opinions.
Concealment and weight come to mind…
IWB carry?
I generally agree with you. I wanted to get in on the pistol movement before it got banned, with the hope that it would be grandfathered in if they did, so that’s how this started. But what I really want is carbine performance, and it may still end up with a 16 or 18 inch barrel. I’m hoping 12.5 gives me the performance I want with the maneuverability that pistols have. I’ll let you know what I think, for sure. Because the maneuverability of a short barrel, once you get used to it, is quite desirable.
I run a 10.5 on my SBR because with Suppressor I wanted it to be +/- 16 inches, helps with balance of rifle with suppressor attached and for what I use it for 10.5 works.
In the past, Tennessee state law allowed people with a carry permit to have a loaded pistol (any pistol, including AR-15 pistols) sitting beside them in the car, but having a carbine in the trunk with a loaded magazine next to it, could potentially get them arrested. That was later changed to people with a carry permit could have a loaded rifle or shotgun in the vehicle, but only if the chamber was empty. Eventually, that was changed to the current law, allowing loaded firearms in the vehicle, even if you don’t have a carry permit (castle doctrine extended to your car).
I suspect that some other states have similar issues with their laws.
Somewhere on the internet, there’s pictures of a guy demonstrating one of those backpacks with a single shoulder strap intended to go across your chest diagonally (sling bag?), with it set up to carry an AR pistol.
I think the process was to grab the strap near your shoulder, then pull down toward your waist. That pulled the pack around to your front, allowing it to be ripped open (I think it was similar to the fanny packs with built-in holsters) and the pistol drawn.
I have see those bags and a few people who could deploy a AR pistol or a folding AK very quickly…
If velocity is limited, then the way to get more energy is to increase bullet weight. That’s makes me think “.300 BLK” which is designed to be low velocity right from the start; in subsonic flavors anyway. Sure the trajectory will be like a rainbow, but that’s what one gets when putting a rifle cartridge into a handgun anyway no matter the cartridge. Just about the time the pressure is peaking the barrel comes uncorked and all the work the powder could have done is wasted (hence the blast and flash) and velocity is low.
Sure, 5.56 can be loaded to decrease blast and flash for a short barrel, but they won’t cycle the action. .300 BLK was designed to cycle the action and have all of that. All it takes is a barrel swap.
I’d also be likely to consider a SBRed or braced PCC rather than a 5.56/.223 handgun. But that’s me. They have lots of advantages if one is going to go low velocity. Things like tolerable blast and flash from the shooters perspective. It may not be thought much of, but the KelTec sub2000 is absolutely reliable, accurate, and can be had in .40. I shot one in 9mm for 2 years in competition and it never malfunctioned when fed brass cased ammo. Folded it’s fairly small. To get it into action can be done rapidly. Blast and flash with it? I had other shooters tell me that it sounded like a .22 to their muffed ears and there were times that the timer couldn’t catch the sound. It can be made really sweet with aftermarket parts. MCarbo even sells one that’s all tricked out before you get it into your hot little hands.
In Indiana you can’t have a loaded long gun in your car or truck. If you have a CCW you can have a loaded AR pistol in you car or truck. That is why I first built an AR pistol. I find an AR pistol easier to tote around on the farm.
I just realized that there could be yet another solution and it has a full length barrel for full power, yet is short… a bullpup. No NFA, full length barrel, reliability is there. Maybe there is one that breaks down, but if there is it skips my mind. But you said reliability takes priority. W/O a can they are as short as a SBR, with a can not so much, but the Desert Tech MDR with an over barrel can is just inches longer than the same bullpup w/o a can and that’s pretty short. MDRs can be had in 7.62, .223Wylde, and soon I understand, in .300 BLK from the factory. And again, due to the full length barrel, they have full power.
The 2 AR Pistols I have in 5.56 are both 8in barrels. These guns run just fine with brass case ammo. Steel case tends to leave a stuck case in the chamber every now and then. I believe they are over gassed and am thinking about adjustable gas blocks. I have had both of these for 10 or 12 years way before pistol braces.
8in barrel on the 300BO. 12in barrel on the 6.5 grendel. 12.5in barrel on the 308. 4in barrel on the 9mm. Where did all these pistols come from??? They seem to multiply on there own.
Under federal law, it would have to be at least 26" overall length, and the barrel has to be at least 16" long. Some bullpups, like the PS90, have to go longer than 16" on the barrel, just to comply with the 26" overall length. If somebody worked out a design that breaks down, you’d still be left with one part that is at least a little over 16" long, so the added complexity probably wouldn’t be worth the small reduction in length.
Has 6.8mm been mentioned as a possible alternative for short barrels? That was one of the main goals in it’s development.
But you have no duty to retreat when endangered; including public servants…
must be a correlation
The right type of case can accept a fully assembled bullpup and to the masses it would be invisible. That’s why I spent time explaining the OL*. I just thought he should have options he might not have considered. Yeah, there are lots of things to weigh. One of which being that bullpups just aren’t liked by many folks.
*I ran in to this OL thing a year and half ago when a cop killer was running around in our “backyard”. I had to do chores and a full length AR was just too unwieldy. I slung a bullpup and while not perfect it was much better. It was the impetus for my SBRed PCC. It’ll never happen again, but I’m ready this time and SBRs are just too cool.
I didn’t have time last night. I do today. Here are some examples of what I was discussing above.
Folded 9mm Sub2k, as JPN mentioned, the barrel is the governing length.
KelTec RDB in 5.56, as far as length goes most bullpups with a 16" barrel would be similar. For an even shorter rifle some bullpups can be SBRed, but then we get into short barrel issues again and the muzzle is even closer to the head with a bullpup.
SBRed 9mm PCC. As seen here it’s not quite the way it is today but you get the idea. When the wire stock is folded it’s fairly small. Don’t bet $ on this, but I think folding arm braces exist to negate the NFA involvment. Anything I SBRed was done for a very good reason otherwise I wouldn’t have done it.
DNR got that law passed . Anti poaching law.
Yeah that pisses me off also, that’s a presumption of guilt and infringement on the 2nd
My understanding is that Tennessee’s (eventually repealed) law against having a firearm and ammo in close proximity of each other in a vehicle, was passed due to state Wildlife Resources Agency efforts to stop people illegally shooting deer from roads (see a deer in a field, stop their vehicle, then shoot the deer).
Police in rural parts of the state, and small towns, apparently didn’t care and didn’t bother anybody that openly violated that law. When the state legislature considered allowing carry permit holders to have loaded rifles and shotguns in their vehicles, one representative stood up and asked exactly what the existing law was, then (after being told ammo and rifles or shotguns near each other in the vehicle was illegal) stated he hadn’t known that was illegal, and you could find plenty of violations of that by walking down the street in his town and seeing rifles and shotguns in racks in back windows of pickups, with boxes of ammo on the dash.
It was in the larger cities that policy makers declared that this law was clearly passed to give police a way to prevent drive-by shootings, and that it would be strictly enforced.
When the law changed allowing carry permit holders to have a loaded rifle or shotgun in their vehicle, it passed with a clause stating that the rifle or shotgun could not have a live round chambered. This was a compromise that was made due to one democrat insisting that if people were allowed to have guns with a round in the chamber, that there would be accidents and people would be hurt. Nobody bothered to tell him (or perhaps they thought it would be best for him not to know), that permit holders already carried a live round in the chamber of their handguns.
After several years of no accidental shootings due to loaded guns in vehicles, and no epidemic of road rage shootings, castle doctrine was finally extended to personal vehicles.
Door ways and transports are the only two that I see a viable reason. Having said that I do own a hand full of them.
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