The Magnificent and the Elusive

I thought you were talking about

Who was answering

And not your double post.
Thats why we need to establish a baseline.

5 Likes

@SavvyJack I always assumed the 45ACP in single action sixguns headspaced just like in a auto, only reason moon clips are needed in DA revolvers is because the star won’t eject them.

5 Likes

gotta love a short barrel with birds head grip


5 Likes

45acp headspace on the mouth of the case. 45colt cylinder will let the acp fall onto the cylinder thus moonclips.

5 Likes

Yes, I was still thinking extra 45 ACP cylinder, not 45 Colt.

5 Likes

The original 250gr 45 Colt black powder loads came in right at 1,050fps @ 600 lbs of energy. This deemed too powerful for the weak folded head cases and the charge was quickly reduced to 30gr. By 1875, with the introduction of the Schofield, Frankford neutered the 45 Colt to a shorter case with just a 230gr lead bullet and 28gr of powder. This reduced the velocity to just 730fps @ 276ft lbs of energy
temporarily making the 44-40 more powerful compared to military 45 Colt standards. Frankfort Arsenal did not designate the new shorter cases as such nor were the longer cases designated anything special. Through the years the civilian market manufactured longer and shorter cases but they were never officially named as such.

There was never an “original” 45 “Long” Colt manufactured by either an ammunition company or firearms company until Uberti came along or maybe another Italian manufacturer. Although several longer and shorter cases were indeed manufactured, these longer and shorter cases had/have specific official names
other than Frankfort Arsenal’s military cartridges.

Civilian Market
45 Colt - long case - 45 Colt headstamp
45 S&W - short case - 45 S&W headstamp
45 Gov - short case - 45 Colt headstamp - Peters
45 Colt - short case - 45 Colt headstamp - WRA
45-70 Gov - as an example of the “Gov” nomenclature.
45 ACP

as well as any other 45 caliber cartridge ever offered.
Here are some examples: Brief 45 Colt Cartridge History

Antique-45-Colt-Schofield-Ammo-Winchester-Brand_101385951_119597_E05F4EEFA90B7A18

5 Likes

Pretty much just a mistake on my part Al. Hopefully didn’t ruffle too many feathers. Ready to move on.

4 Likes

Pretty much what I wrote, Savvy, however we all should understand that bullet weights and velocities were then, as now, approximates.
Col. Custer went on a Buffalo hunt with those early loads, and dropped a good sized bull. We here on this forum have a great deal more experience and knowledge in using firearms than the raw recruit, then and now. A nation of immigrants, few arrived with extensive firearms know-how. The 45 Colt was quickly reduced in power for military use, although civilian loads through the years seem to have seen a far greater variety.
The 45-70, actually had two military loads, the full bore for infantry, and a reduced charge for cavalry.

5 Likes

I think I read somewhere they used a cylinder shaped spacer in the reduced 45-70 loads so the bp was still the full column length just smaller diameter.

4 Likes

The folded head 45 Colt cases were not replaced until at least 1882ish when they switched to the boxer primer, or was it the Gill primer?..anyhow
the 45 Colt loads were reduced at least until that time frame.

Interestingly enough, Colt did not even develop the 45 Colt cartridge, it has been reported that the Government did through the Frankford Arsenal. Although the military was looking at or had just acquired the 44 (American?) revolver, the military already had the 45-70 and they wanted a 45 cal revolver.

Once the center fire cartridge made the scene, Winchester manufactured the reloading tools for them.

We don’t see many, if any, 45 Colt cartridges without the center fire primers. When we do, they seem to mostly be from Frankfort.

Historic 45 Colt BP factory loads included, but not necessarily limited to:

7 grs. (round ball)
28 grs.
30 grs.
35 grs.
38 grs.
40 grs.

6 Likes

Well, the truth behind black powder and metallic cartridges is that it works best when compressed. A small charge of black in a big case can work, but it won’t be optimal.
The usual method for occupying extra space is some type of combustible material between the charge and the projectile.

6 Likes

I agree, this is why many folks do not understand that the 45 Colt was not what they think it was between 1873 and 1882
especially with the military.

Other than Frankford Arsenal’s cartridges, I don’t recall seeing any pre-1884ish unheadstamped civilian cartridges. Pretty much all I ever see (and I don’t dig very much) is post-1884 when Winchester and UMC started headstamping their cartridges.

All post 1882

28gr250UMC45colt



0407umcrepro45colt_1



1883_8545lcW20148


7 Likes

I saved this box for a separate post reply. This is the earliest example I have seen. This one sold for $9,600. It was said to be an opened box BUT Winchester did not seal their boxes until the mid-1870’s except maybe for some export boxes. This Winchester box has evidence of never had a seal. I wish I could see the cartridges inside!!! HOWEVER, note the “cartridges can be reloaded many times” call-out, indicating center fire
post 1882?



The other box I deleted, it was actually 44-40.

8 Likes

It is believed, or has been reported that Ideal started manufacturing reloading tool about 1885. Here is a claimed 1st Generation Colt box with the Ideal tool documentation on the inside of the lid. I am calling that a 250 255gr bullet???


7 Likes

cool stuff


4 Likes

Well Savvy, maybe you can give yourself some parts on the back for all this. I really enjoy being able to peruse these photos, and I know that posting stuff like this takes research, time, and know how.
If I recall correctly, the Colt SAA was not civilian available for most of the decade of the 1870s. Production of the gun was initially directed only to fulfilling the military order, and the military came back with some changes they wanted to see, such as a larger stud on the ejector, and a full power mainspring.
Keeping this in mind, ammunition wouldn’t be available to civilians until late in the 1870s.
The cartridge called for a 250 to 255 grain tapered bullet throughout the decades. In modern nomenclature, it’s called the RNFP, short for: round nose flat point, but the flat is decidedly tiny. This was a very heavy bullet for a revolver, remaining at or near the top of factory bullet weights well into the 20th century. Doubtless, the 45 Colts reputation as a slayer of man and beast came from the work that bullet could do.
Yes, I do believe that documentation exists indicating that the SAA was first conceived as a 44 caliber gun, becoming a 45 only after the army rejected the smaller caliber. There had to be cooperation between Colt and the military, in order for the new gun to meet standards for strength and performance, which it did. The original specifications for the gun were held by the Arsenal, as presumably were cartridge.
A few folks over the years commented on the small rim, acknowledging that the cartridge changed significantly over the years. The rim was kept small to enable six rather hefty rounds in a compact cylinder, enabling a more streamlined design.

6 Likes

Pats. Pats on the back.
Duran “spell check” works as well as “fact check”, and is about as welcome.

3 Likes

Might be cheap if this trend keeps up :pensive:

5 Likes

From what I have seen in the past, the first or at least one of the first civilian suppliers was Benjamin Kittredge whom was a prominent gun dealer of Cincinnati. He supposedly started selling the 45 Colts as early as October 1874., just over a year after the military received their 45’s.

Between October, 1879, and October, 1885, Bat Masterson ordered at least eight Single Action Army revolvers directly from the Colt factory. He kept some for his own use while giving the others to friends as gifts. The first of these, marked “W. B. Masterson,” sported a 7-1/2-inch barrel. Yet, of the remaining seven, two had 5-1/2-inch barrels while the rest were 4-3/4-inches in length.

The “Gunfight at the O.K. Corral” during the month of October 1881, should be too early of a date for the stronger centerfire cases capable of full blown loads. It is uncertain that any 45 Colt was even used. The only two confirmed (documented) guns were Colt 44-40s used by Billy and Frank.

Billy Clanton - 44-40
Frank McLaury - 44-40
Tom McLaury - Unarmed?
Ike Clanton and Billy Claiborne claimed to be unarmed and fled.
44 caliber Winchester 73’s reported in the scabbards of the cowboys.

Wyatt Earp - Smith and Wesson model 1869 American .44 caliber single action revolver
Doc Holiday - shotgun
Virgil Earp - unknown make and caliber, presumed 44 S&W that he liked.
Morgan Earp - unknown make and caliber

Unanswered questions

7 Likes

From my notes (subject to errors):
The “Army” placed an order for 8,000 M1873 “45 Colts” during 1873. By 1874, they were well distributed, as well as in Custer’s regiment. As early as October 1874, prominent gun dealer Benjamin Kittredge & Co of Cincinnati began marketing Colt’s new pistol as The Peacemaker for the civilian market. Colt displayed some single actions at the Philadelphia Centennial Exposition in 1876, it was not until December 1, 1877, that any left the Hartford assembly plant for actual sale. Distributor, Henry Folsom & Co acquired and sold off a few of 18 that were displayed during the 1876 Expo. Of those 18 displayed, the following 5 sn#s were on a receipt from Folsom
8,900, 8,925, 8,926, 8,927 and 8,928. These 5 sn#s are a bit higher than 8,000 and were engraved. William B. “Bat” Masterson purchased a Colt from the Colt Company on July 30, 1885. Between October, 1879, and October, 1885, he ordered at least eight Single Action Army revolvers directly from the Colt factory. He kept some for his own use while giving the others to friends as gifts. The first of these, marked “W. B. Masterson,” sported a 7-1/2-inch barrel. Yet, of the remaining seven, two had 5-1/2-inch barrels while the rest were 4-3/4-inches in length. . Johnny Ringo at some point acquired sn# 222, found next to his body in July 13, 1882. Billy the Kid somehow ended up with sn# 361. Virgil Earp somehow acquired sn# 808 by 1881. Frank Jackson acquired sn# 934. Jessie James acquired sn# 1,222. Frank Stilwell is reported owning sn# 1,281. Charlie Reynolds (killed bighorn) had sn# 2,499. Gen Alfred Terry (Commander Dakota Territory from later 72’ to 86’) acquired sn# 4,507. sn# 4,995 recovered from the Custer battlefield. Lt William Reilly lost and paid for sn# 5,125, then issued sn# 4,815
killed at LBH. “Spotting Crow” took possession of sn# 5,128 from LBH. The back strap of sn# 6,048 was found at LBH during the 1984 archeological survey. Sebastian Outlaw acquired sn# 6,285. An Ainsworth inspected SAA sn# 10,344 was customized for Sheriff "Fay A. Brown during refurbishing (1900?).

I need to point out that these early sn# Colts, once belonging to the military then acquired by well known persons of the old west, were obtained sometime after the military disposed of them
but earlier than 1882 by a few.

7 Likes